RED needs a kick in the butt

Disclaimer: The following is meant as an analysis of the situation based on my experience as a tech journalist for some 8 years, and on my own personal opinion. It’s not meant to disrespect RED, or its founders. In fact, as a true tech geek, I am a fan of the whole RED project!

UPDATE 2: And now I am BANNED from the REDUser forum, for discussing my points VERY CALMLY with others. I was name called, but I never name called back. I simply explained my points, civilized, as you can read there.

UPDATE 3: Re-instated at the forum. Thanks everyone who spoke up about it.

RED just published an update on their vaporware line. You can read about it here & here.

Basically, these are hyperbole vaporware products, made by hype machines rather than engineers. Oh, I don’t dispute the fact that maybe 1-2 of these products announced last year and today will see the market at some point, but I do dispute the fact that they will be able to create all that stuff they are promising, and at the prices that they are promising. Already, now it’s becoming obvious that getting a usable Scarlet model is a $10k affair, and not a $3.5k as they had you to believe last year.

All this made me remember of my mother who used to tell me about an old man in her mountain village (I believe he’s long dead now) who had this moto: “promising is gaining, giving is losing”.

Basically, RED is a dream. Not your dream. But Jim Jannard’s dream. The guy’s a billionaire, and so he put together the RED company on the side. It’s obviously his “hobby” (it certainly feels that way). If the company goes nowhere eventually, oh well, at least he had fun doing it. But I keep thinking that all the millions he had poured into this, he could have either:
1. Simply make small modifications on the original RED while continuing R&D on new technologies without promising the most crazy things to his customers. Instead, follow a more traditional path regarding R&D and production.
2. If he just wanted to pour money down a hole, he should have given the money to people who need it instead, e.g. via Unicef.

Not all is bad from the whole story though. RED *has* contributed in the move from film to digital in Hollywood. I give them credit for that, and I thank them for that. But unfortunately, 99% of the time, it’s never that “first” company with the vision that ends up taking over that market. Instead, it’s the second or the third company in that sector who will learn from RED’s mistakes and dominate.

What I am saying here is that RED is going to die. There’s no way Jannard and his zillions can sustain this crazy business model they have. Just like the Xerox Alto was the first graphical personal computer of its kind but never went anywhere, RED will be seen the same way in 10-20 years from now. We would see RED with this romantic eye, but there won’t be any RED left at that point.

Who’s going to steal their thunder? In my opinion, it’s Canon. To create such complex technology, and especially at competitive prices, it requires an already established company with vast experience of both the technology and the market. Canon has the ability to simply evolutionize (rather than revolutionize) their existing technologies and catch up with RED — and even become better than them. Evidently from their recent VdSRLs and the rumored large-sensor prosumer cameras coming next Spring, I personally see Canon taking over Hollywood with as of yet un-announced offerings sooner than later.

But RED? It is Jim’s dream, and we were all in it. But I just woke up. I just hope Jim does too. Jim, save your money. That’s all I can say to you. Because I am a fan!

Update 1: A lot of people have a problem with the word “hobby”. Let me be clear about this. I believe that Jim does have a genuine interest about what he’s doing! He’s not an amateur. When someone has a serious hobby doesn’t mean that it’s just something he/she does on weekends.

But what it also means, in my book, is that he/she could be starting the business based on the interest about the technology in itself, and from pure curiosity, and for the cool factor, and not to create an actual profitable business. To me, a lot of things RED feel like “if it becomes profitable, even better — if not, well, we had fun researching and playing engineers”. While this is all fine if you’re a billionaire, it doesn’t strike me very nice if I was to be a customer.

I simply — for the life of me — can not take seriously RED when they spread themselves too thin over so many products. I just don’t see these as actual final products, I see them as beta stuff that someone put together in an R&D lab. Proof that the RED One had so many firmware upgrades so far. A “product” with the traditional sense, in that price, should have been bullet proof from Day 1. And I just don’t see this happening with the new line of cameras — if they ever come out.

In other words: In my own opinion, RED doesn’t know how to release PRODUCTS. There’s a difference between breaking new technological ground, and actually putting that new technology in an actual product. A product that is meant to be a product, and not a lab unit.

76 Comments »

James wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 4:56 PM PST:

I don’t know a ton about professional video, but I have looked at the RED One. I was interested very much in purchasing a Scarlet at one point, however I think you have very valid points here as I (even though I am not a professional) have seen the amazingly rapid changes to the product line and their changing prices for cameras that have never become available.

I wish they would succeed however, as I think their ideas are great, but what you have opined about their business model is most likely accurate.

James


William Eggington wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 5:02 PM PST:

Often times its not for technical reasons a company dominates a market. Its that un-definable “I want” factor. Macs vs. PCs. BMW’s vs Pontiacs etc.


Bud Selig wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 6:23 PM PST:

I know of a similar ‘Vapor” like product from back in the 80’s it was called the VECTOR. A car no less and was touted to have all the goodies and faster than fast but it took
f o r e v e r to come to production and then only a handful were produced for serious $$$$. What ever happened to that flying car we’ve seen on magazine covers for the last 20 years?


bjc wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 6:36 PM PST:

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Red has delivered on everything they have promised with the Red One camera, yet they continue to push out firmware upgrades that give owners what is effectively a brand new camera every month or two.

28K is nothing for a professional production camera. To put it in perspective, 28K wouldn’t buy you 2 film magazines for an Arri 435. 28K is what most feature films pay for raw film stock each day.

I work in the film business, on high end commercials and music videos. My work has become about 50% Red in the last year. I find it amazing that a large portion of what you are watching on TV (instead of learning about digital cinema) is shot on this ‘vaporware’.

These imaginary cameras have made me a very nice living the last few years. It is entertaining to read piss-ant know-nothings call my livelihood a dream, but I would really recommend you take some time to learn before you write about things.


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Eugenia wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 6:40 PM PST:

The RED One is out there, it’s not vaporware. But the crazy stuff they promised last year, they are. They won’t be able to make good on everything they promised, and not for the prices they promised. That’s for sure. IMO, RED has lost the plot with dreaming big. They spread themselves too thin. And Canon can eat them alive in a single swoop *if* they want to.


JJ wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 7:00 PM PST:

VdSLRs? That sounds like a disease.. Vd.. maybe HDSLRs is better?

Interesting article though.


richard wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 7:17 PM PST:

The RED one is a test bed and the majority of people who bought one were suckered. Sure they fixed it but they also kept promising cult-like rewards to appease the ones who got burned, there were always improvements coming and there would be upgrades forever and rewards beyond your wildest dreams. The R1 may be out there working but the reason for the constant updates and releases is that it didn’t work and it still isn’t reliable (I know of one production that got through SEVEN bodies just to keep shooting). They rushed it out unfinished and have been updating it ever since. Sure it produces nice pictures but how long do you think they can sustain a business model like that?

Longer than they can keep feeding the hype machine for sure, which is all they are doing now. Plus, my reckoning brings the bare minimum of modules in at 12k. so $40k for the Epic and what 17k for a 2/3 Scarlet? The democratisation of film making now costs twice as much as the original red one, or you can have a scarlet with a smaller sensor than a red one for the same price as a R1.

They have lost the vision completely and got sucked into making something that the majority of the market doesn’t want and can’t afford.

I’m a pro shooter too but I’ve got enough sense to know when I’m being fed a line and strung along. I wouldn’t swallow it from Sony or Panny and I don’t swallow it from RED.


Reubal wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 7:20 PM PST:

No. What does “HDSLR” even mean? High Digital SLR? High DEFINITION SLR? The DSLRs are already much higher than HD.

“VDSLR” is most accurate. VIDEO DigitalSLR. DigitalSLR or the ESTABLISHED “DSLR” but that also shoots video. V. VDSLR. HDSLR makes no sense. And since HD is the standard in video acquisition now, no need for “HD”. It certainly isnt going to be “SD”, so no need to differentiate.

“VDSLR” doesnt sound like a disease, it sounds like a digital SLR that also shoots video.


Paul Zadie wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 7:40 PM PST:

It is interesting that your post attempts to bring down “hyperbole vaporware products”, yet you close the article by saying that Red will be brought down by Canon products that don’t yet exist. And you can thank Red for shaping whatever products Canon does announce next year.


CM Harrington wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 7:57 PM PST:

Real artists ship.

I’m not holding my breath for Scarlet in any form. I am however, producing fantastic, high quality content with tech that actually exists.


Dan wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 8:11 PM PST:

It’s nice to see the “Red One hate” Mad-Lib for blogs has made the rounds for Scarlet.

Calling Red vaporware before they took a product to market was fair. But they brought the Red One to market, it was everything they said it would be, at the price they said. Red’s earned a little patience.


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Eugenia wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 8:35 PM PST:

>Red will be brought down by Canon products that don’t yet exist.

The difference is that Canon has most of the technology required to bring them down, and any additional R&D, and the ability to create *products*. RED doesn’t.


Jay wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 8:46 PM PST:

I am responsible for the 1st and perhaps only DVD on the RED ONE camera. I have to say this article is amazing in how it ignores not only RED’s track record to date, but Jim Jannard’s as well.

The author speaks as though she sat down with Jim, he told her all of his plans and then she wrote based on that interview. In fact she knows nothing of his plans. A little commmon sense would reveal that Jim has no only launched into the camera business, but a number of others as well. Canon’s size is not an advantage in this case. It slows down their development, and their current business model is too large to bring products to the correct price point. This article is “interestinig”, but sadly, also misguided. How do I know I’m write, because stuff like this was written the first time around. And here we are.

Jay


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 8:50 PM PST:

You could rent my camera package anytime you like. We’ll have a few of the Epics next year.


Brad Hagen wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:22 PM PST:

Red deserves significant credit for flipping the film and video industry on it’s head. I agree that new cameras are looking better then ever and at better values then ever. But none of the competitive options in the marketplace compare to RED. None. We own cameras 15 & 16 and get to shoot amazing footage without compromise. Check out this clip from one of our shows on YOU TUBE http://ow.ly/xPzQ – be sure to click the HD button and see for yourself. We own Canon 5D’s, Lens adapters and more – and though these too bring new image possibilities to the market, they do not produce what the Red One produces.

If all that Red ever produced was the Red One camera, I don’t see how can anyone say that RED has under delivered.


gir wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:33 PM PST:

There’s alot that I disagree with in this article and alot that I agree with. That’s Red too, I agree with alot of their philosophies and disagree with others.

“it’s never that “first” company with the vision that ends up taking over that market. Instead, it’s the second or the third company in that sector who will learn from RED’s mistakes and dominate.”

Is absolutely %100 right.I see Reds position now is just like 3Dfx’s position was about 12 years ago, 3Dfx is dead now buried buy Nvidia and ATI, 3Dfx had a propitiatory API called Glide much like Red has RedCode.

Certainly there’s alot that Red has done right and they made everyone sit up and take notice, the question is can they sustain it and adapt when necessary, there’s nothing stopping Canon or Nikon from offering a kickass 4k CinemaDNG camera that also shoots stills.


Stephen wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:34 PM PST:

The difference is that Canon has most of the technology required to bring them down

Except Canon doesn’t have a large sensor that can be fully read out at any more than 8fps without line skipping, and Canon doesn’t have wavelet compression algorithms.

Or, maybe they do, and they are just not talking about. The development RED is going through is no different than any other company, other than the fact they are doing it out in the open in front of their users, and they get feedback from those users as they are designing their products.

RED keeps over-promising, and under-delivering.

RED keeps saying “Specifications, prices and delivery dates are subject to change. Count on it.”

Even back at NAB 2006, where they promised a $17,500 camera that recorded 4K. And, well… that’s exactly what they delivered.

It took them a while to deliver all the functionality through firmware updates, but the people who put down deposits at NAB met at RED headquarters to see the state of the camera at the time, and were offered full refunds of their deposit and their air fare, even the guy from Australia if they didn’t want the camera right as it was, right then and there. Every one of them took the camera.

I work for a company that decided to wait and see. After a while, the camera was everything they promised, a 4K camera for $17,500 with ever feature they expected. So they bought one, and were extremely happy with it. Then, a few weeks ago, a free firmware download upgraded it to a 4.5K camera. That was a pleasant surprise.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but it should be noted that your opinion of RED is the opinion of someone who is a Canon owner. The opinion of RED from people who are RED owners is quite different.


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Eugenia wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:36 PM PST:

>they do not produce what the Red One produces.

No, they don’t. But going from that half-assed half-lined 1080p output to a full-lined 4k output, only takes a faster memory bus, a somewhat better read-out sensor, and a better codec. Canon already knows how to produce big, fast sensors. It’s almost “free” technology for them. And if Cineform is willing to license to Canon (I see the codec as a bigger obstacle than the hardware required), then I don’t see why Canon couldn’t put together a RED One killer in record time. For 1/3 of the price.


Amy wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:40 PM PST:

Brad you are sooooo wrong. Most high end production is not being shot on Red. In fact most movies shown in a theater last year, and television series that were shot digitally were NOT shot on a Red camera.

They could have! They are cheap and plentiful. The workflow was figured out. So I’ll let that sink in for a second.

If Red was so good, why isn’t EVERYONE doing it? You can rent a Red camera for 1/2 the price of the F900 which debuted almost 10-years ago!

Maybe it’s because the camera is actually NOT VERY GOOD, which is the real answer.

The PGA and ASC did a test that found that the Red camera is NOT SUITABLE FOR PROFESSIONAL PRODUCTION.

I hope you enjoy your cameras, the cult, and the kool-aid, because most of the people, that is the PEOPLE WHO’S OPINION MATTERS, have decided- your crappy overprices camera doesn’t count.

Right on Eugenia you go sister!


George Butterfield wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:43 PM PST:

Gee, I’m happy with my RED ONE, I think I’ll upgrade to an Epic-X, I’ll be shooting a feature summer/fall of 2010. It’s my hobby. I don’t give to UNICEF, I pay actors instead … they are people too.


Diesel wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:53 PM PST:

Well,

Since Jim Jannard built Oakley sunglasses from the ground up (see “billionaire”), I’d say it’s safe to trust the man and his vision.

Red’s transparency in regard to the fact that the next round of Red products will be released when they are READY is great.

So… The “Red One Killer” of which you speak… is Red’s own design, the Red Epic. Even the new Scarlet will shoot higher quality than the Red One did originally.

Canon, Sony, Panasonic, are all bound by legacy products (see “obsolete”) that are still on the shelves in stores, warehouses, and factories. For them to release a product on par with even the Scarlet would effectively render ALL of this back inventory obsolete. They would have all suppliers, retailers, etc. to answer to in such a case.

Even the base model of the new Scarlet with the fixed lens will be a GAME-CHANGER. It will destroy competition for the foreseeable future at that price point ($3500-$4000 range), both for pro-sumer level HD Digital Video AND the Digital Still market.

In one fell swoop.

It will


Eric Camp wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:56 PM PST:

So first off. Vapor ware.

Thats nice, its been said before and it’s been wrong. What exactly are you calling vapor ware?

The scarlet line? A particular module? The 645 or the 617? Do you think all of it is not going to happen? I just would love some specific allegations as opposed to blanket statements.

Secondly, \Cannon can and will eat RED. (if they wanted too)\
This is a bit of a \my dad can beat up your dad\ statement. First off you are comparing an announced item to an announced item. So that stinks of irony. Secondly, you and others here have mentioned companies that were first to market being overshadowed by a competitors better implementation of their idea. In the same breath you suggest that RED should have NOT created a new line and simply updated the original, \beta,\ camera. (I personally have worked on 5 major motion pictures with budgets ranging from 3 million on the very low end to $150 million on the high end and numerous commercials with that \beta\ camera) Don’t you see your own self fulfilling advice. Red is improving on the first gen. They are in fact bringing the next gen of that idea to market before a competitor.

It’s clear you and I want different things. Quality is at the top of my list. Price and speed seem to be on yours. I hope cannon makes something you like.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 9:04 PM PST:

>The author speaks as though she sat down with Jim,

No, “the author” does not speak like that. I don’t know Jannard. But I do know what RED is doing based on available information, and that Jim has a passion for photography and all things cameras. And based on what we know, RED feels like Jim’s hobby. RED keeps over-promising, and under-delivering. It’s like the company is just Jim’s wishful thinking. That qualifies as a hobby. Maybe we have a different understanding of the word, since I am not a native English speaker.


Stephen wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 10:09 PM PST:

Stephen wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 10:13 PM PST:

Oh, and funny that Amy should call the $17,500 RED ONE overpriced, after comparing it to the $69,900 F900…


Brad Hagen wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 10:43 PM PST:

Amy and friends – You compare the Red to an F900? The Red blows the F900 out of the water in many aspects. I know, I have shot with both. Have you? You say the Red camera rents for half of what and F900 rents for – maybe so I haven’t rented one for years, but the F900 costs $60K+ and based on that it should rent for 1/3 the price. So what. I expect that, compared to Red, there are fewer then 1/4 F900’s out in the market, and competition and accessibility also affect rental price. Aren’t you happy you can rent (or own) a better camera for less?

Try shooting a single camera shoot destined for 1080p and getting all of your wide shots, and your close-ups from the single recording and not being able to distinguish the two? That is what Red gives you and none of the digital video cameras mentioned above give you that.

Try flashing a firmware upgrade to a Sony camera that significantly turns, what was, a good camera into a better camera. I have owned several hundreds of thousands of dollars of conventional video gear and none of it has gotten better once I left the store with it. The Red has and will continue to improve long after you have left the store.

As far as high end work being done on Red, I think you better check your facts on that too. Red is a choice many, once, filmmakers are choosing for acquisition today. It is real, try it, you will like it.


James Benet wrote on October 30th, 2009 at 11:38 PM PST:

Pretty Courageous post Eugenia.

I agree with a lot in there, even if they get out 1/2 of the products in a years time it would still help the industry advance enormously, and Jim and their team will deserve a lot of praise and credit for that.

Canon and Sony are not interested in delivering a quality product like that for the masses, they are in the little by little trickle drop release business. Upgrade a bit of features every cycle just to tempt new buyers but without actually delivering the quality to be truly professional at least in the video side.

Now we are all quite frustrated and disheartened by the scarlet being pushed back even more and now costing even higher on top. We thought we were going to have a RED Christmas but that was dissolved in a jiff. The forum banning and the love fest of Reduser are also factors that create distrust. Why does RED need 100% pumper only forums? Is it to get their hopes up every day and continue on? It’s his company and he can be as totalitarian as he wants, even if that’s not close to our thirst for free speech and democracy. But is that different from any other large corporation? Canon would never allow negative comentys to filter thru on Chuck Westfall posts or their newsletters. So Jim Jannard can’t be really blamed for much more than positivism thirst.

The news today will probably sell a ton more 7D and 5D bodies even 1D4s just by the frustration of the wait time ahead. But is it that bad? We can shoot and create material for a fraction of the money it cost just 5 years back. Sure the resolution sucks, the moire blows and the aliasing is just pants but it will get better and that’s where your prediction comes in. When the video is alias/moire free and we have a Cineform like codec on these cams it will be good enough for 99% of production, and finally quench the thirst.

Now the question is if Red can deliver before the threshold of quality is breached by the vDSLR makers, making your Canon prediction true.

I believe we will see Panasonic, Canon and maybe Sony release video cameras with single large chip sensors before we get to SLRs being quality video delivery machines. And when they do as rumored, RED will go in history as the company that woke the sleeping giants, and I believe Jim will still be pleased with the effort of his team and his own.


Polpope wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 1:45 AM PST:

Eugenia, you obviously wanted a RED ONE from day one and you were waiting for the cheaper SCARLET.

The constant push of the release dates and the fact that the camera itself won’t be as cheap as you imagined have turned you to the Canon DSLRs: Though they show heavy aliasing, rolling shutter effects, an effective resolution of around 1300 pixels wide and their codec destroys so much detail that makes heavy color correction impossible, they are cheap and have that reduced depth of field you love.

I read your fanatic rants at prolost and they were as off-track as this one is.

I’ll talk about my case: I have owned a RED ONE for over a year one. I have rented it and got my money back. Twice. I have produced my own short films that have won over 40 prices in festivals all around the world.

We HAVE NOT had any significant problems while shooting. In fact, the camera has just finished a tv-movie and a film back to back and not one problem has surfaced.

I couldn’t be happier with the quality it provides and each time I get amazed when I open the footage in AE and color correct it.

Two years ago I was shooting with a crappy Sony HDV. My life has changed so for the better and I can nothing but thank RED for this. Of course, I will change to EPIC when it comes out.

Just a couple more points, the F900 rents for about 2/3 of a RED ONE here where I live.

And in the last months most of the films, short films and tv-movies shot here do so with the RED ONE.


Gavin Greenwalt wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 1:49 AM PST:

Even if Canon could put together a camera from scratch that delivers a APS-C 5k RAW camera I don’t think they would. They might in the future. But not yet. Why should they? When RED is successful they sell 7,000+ REDOnes. When Canon is successful they sell 7,000,000.

Take a look at the Scarlet FF35 and compare that to a 1D the FF35 is a good deal chunkier. Most of Canon’s market doesn’t care about receiving a high quality cine camera they want moving photos which the existing products deliver just fine.

Canon shipped a camera without 24p. It’s obvious they don’t care. Being able to do something and wanting to do something or it even being a sensible business decision are two very different things.

Maybe Canon could have put out a 4k s35mm camera before RED… but they didn’t. Maybe Canon could put out a scarlet competitor before RED does… but they haven’t indicated they’re even interested.

It’s sort of like the line “He’s just not that into you.” That’s the message I’ve been getting from canon for the last 8 years. 24f not 24p on their flagship prosumer camcorder when it was going head to head with the HVX… they just aren’t in sync with what I want in a camera and I don’t think they are really competing with RED because if they were then they would be doing a very poor job.

RED’s price has increased quite a bit on the lowest end model I think they originally said 3k for $3k. But what’s happened since then is I think RED has seen what Canon has offered and instead of attempting to go head to head with Canon’s offerings they’re wanting to offer a higher end alternative with 60p vs canon’s 30 etc. I think canon beat them in the low end and at $3k. It’s not a great offering but it’s “good enough” or at least “too similar” to RED’s original 2/3″ plans.

Canon is focused on what makes it money: still photographers. The fact that indies are using their cameras for movie making seems to be little more than a happy side effect to canon. RED is focused on film makers and delivering a product which best fits that demographic. And it’s a demographic which is far more demanding from their video offerings.

As to even complaining. RED could just run silent until they ship, but many people have the self control to read “Everything Subject to Change, in fact count on it” and actually believe it. The great thing about vapor is that it’s flexible and can respond to changing conditions. RED adapts and changes based on feedback. Things change and it’s one of their greatest assets.

As a tech writer perhaps you had many bad encounters with vaporware but my experience with beta applications and vaporware is quite the opposite. I love beta applications where features are constantly changing and everything is subject to change because it means my voice still has power over the outcome. I’m not given a box with no resolution, no way to shift it to my needs and desires. I can comment and see those comments reflected in the outcome. I can request features and comment on implementation. You’re comparing RED to all the wrong companies. You should be comparing them to other successful but once small companies such as Blizzard Games. Blizzard was a small company once. And they had a simple philosophy on release dates “When it’s ready.” Thanks to that simple philosophy to not bow to pressure to “Deliver their vaporware already.” they took the time to hand craft every product. They performed extensive play testing and beta testing and they developed a reputation for delivering something of quality every time they shipped. I just read something that now World of Warcraft is about 1/2 of all PC game sales. There are TV channels in asia which broadcast Starcraft games a decade after the game’s release. Or perhaps we should look at iD or Valve both companies which committed not to delivering on schedules but to always try to deliver quality, whenever that might be.


Morgan wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 2:17 AM PST:

Eugenia, thanks for having the courage for stating what many of us have been feeling but are too cowardly to state at redusers forum. We will be banned too. I like that you stayed above name calling, gave credit where due, but still pointed out the mistakes.

I am not surprised that you were banned, it is standard Red policy: give patronage to people who cheer and hype the products, ban anyone who points out weaknesses and mistakes.

Jim Jannard has been proven to be a liar, he promised something but now he changes his tune and promises something in future. Perhaps things will change ‘again’ as he so loves to say.

I agree with your assesment that Canon will rule the market, they were caught un[re[ared by Red. But they know how to make functional products and deliver them on a schedule.

PS: I am sure that although he has banned you at Reduser forum, Jannard is reading this like a hawk. The man is an egomaniac, he has created an army of supporters who exist to cheer him when he yawns, brushes his teeth and so on. Goodbye Jim, you’ve lost many customers today. Lying might work when selling branded ‘lifestyle’ sunglasses to mostly uneducated consumers, digital cameras are another matter.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 2:23 AM PST:

Thank you for the support Morgan. Just a clarification, I was banned by one of the REDUser moderators, not by Jim (AFAIK).

I felt that the banning was uncalled for, since I was there just to defend my position and myself (since the guy who created the thread was very aggressive, and others name-called me later). I made sure to be civilized and simply discuss the issues with the board users. Instead, I was just banned out of the blue as we all started to understand each other’s points better. Oh well, it doesn’t matter anymore. I’ve made my points.


Morgan wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 2:34 AM PST:

This is amazing. After banning you they are now telling more lies. Now they are saying on Reduser forum that the bulletin board is ‘independent’ of Red company. It “just” happens that Jarred the BB owner is also a Red employee!

And for some reason Jannard (who is not related to the board) gets admin priviliges, too. And he commands around all the mods and admins of reduser, even though he doesn’t own it.

Oops.


Surftom (Tom Perrone) wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 3:06 AM PST:

Wow…. Just wow….
I read the thread on Red User in its entirety. There was NO REASON to plunk you off the forum. None!
Eugenia, seriously… get a 5D2 or a 7D. You’ll never look back. Seriously. I waited and waited then got the 5D2 and even with it’s limitations it’s fantastic. Come hang out at Cinema5D more often. You’re much more appreciated there.


SteveSpeed wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 4:06 AM PST:

Eugenia being banned from REDUser is no great loss but it says a lot about RED. I’ve never bought the RED BS and there is still no reason too.

My interest in RED has long since waned in fact after their BS of 4k isn’t high enough that was enough for me. I said at the time when the RED Crack was spilling across the net that even the most pessimistic delivery time would be missed by a year to 18 months. How did I know that? I simply watched how long it took them to make the RED One actually work let alone make it a production ready tool and Jannard BS about the world changing simply is not responsible for all the slippage in delivery timescales.

RED’s insane pursuit of ridiculous resolutions that no needs and will have to carry through post will be their biggest mistake if not their down fall. All I want is low DOF, low compression, 1080p with good colour sampling and I bet a good many other people want that over umpteen K+. Canon, Sony and Panasonic get there long before RED and with real-world production ready cameras to boot.


Αndreas wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 4:42 AM PST:

Today I learned that there is something worse than a mac zealot: a RED zealot.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 5:16 AM PST:

I’m glad you got banned… you talk a lot of nonsense. RED has released lots of products… RED one camera, set of RED Pro Primes, RED 18-50mm lens, RED 50-150mm lens, RED 300 mm lens, RED 18-85 zoom, RED Rocket card. These products are revolutionary and very high quality. The release has been a success with many indies buying into their products. I have no idea what kind of illogical crazy talk you are on. You deserve a kick in the butt and a savings account.


Andreas wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 5:45 AM PST:

Yes, that (above) was exactly what I meant.


gir wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 7:45 AM PST:

Wow just wow indeed, I’ve been a supporter of Red on other forums and have many times defended them against Canontards, but like Andreas I have also learned there’s something worse than a Canon zealot: a RED zealot.

Seriously there was no need for the banning, pathetic total, the Reduser community has become a real cesspool of elitists jackasses… how ironic..


Steve Sherrick wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 7:49 AM PST:

I recommend that everyone take a step back for a moment, think about the times we’re living in, and hopefully come to a similar conclusion that I have. It’s a pretty good time to be a filmmaker. Look at the choices you have. There are tools at every price point. There’s almost no excuse to not be able to go out and make films, commercials, music videos, whatever you want to make. I’ve talked to many people who seem to be bothered by the hype surrounding RED. Why be bothered by it? Instead, take the camera for a ride if you get the chance, and you’ll see it really lives up to the hype if you know how to use it (which by the way takes time like any camera to really master it). But if not interested in that camera or that company, try out many of the other cameras available and find one that suits your needs. Very simple situation really. No need to wait on RED if you don’t want to, no need to call them a bunch of names, and no need to get into angry debates.

If everyone keeps an open mind, the world is a brighter place.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 8:16 AM PST:

To a person having only one dollar… the person with ten dollars seems like an elitist.


Dajebus wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 8:41 AM PST:

I think you have very valid points here.

I think the sad fact is people pick a side and then will defend their choice until the end.
Its a cult type of deal. Mac uses have it from time to time. “we are better and the whole world is stupid for not seeing how much better we are.” type of thing.
I think from the comments I have seen here, RED users drink the same coolaid.

People get a little touchy when you point out a flaw in the current cult they are in. It’s human nature. We do not like to be wrong.
More so when being wrong costs us $3000 more than the next guy.

But take heart.
99% of all people in the world are jerks.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 8:48 AM PST:

You are definitely right about 99% of people beings jerks. I think Eugenia is one for her comments.


jv wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:00 AM PST:

To Reubal,

I’ve always understood HDSLR to stand for ‘Hybrid DSLR’ – a DSLR that also shoots video.


Scott wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:10 AM PST:

“It’s like the company is just Jim’s wishful thinking. That qualifies as a hobby.”

Since when does wishful thinking make something a hobby, especially considering that this isn’t even a fact, just your uninformed opinion?

I find it amazing that you think is RED is going to die because of what you call overpriced products. 10 years ago most journalists were writing “Apple is dead” articles due to what most people considered to be an overpriced niche product line, and look what happened to them. They may not dominate the pc industry, but they’re definitely a power player.

How about more facts that you can actually back up and less arrogant, uniformed opinions?


SBG wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:12 AM PST:

One stroke of true genius that RED has managed to harness is the “rebel” persona. It is a great enabler of fanboyism, because it gives the fanboy permission to ignore common sense. “That’s not absurd – it’s revolutionary – you just don’t understand – RED is different from every other company”. I have to say that I am quite impressed with their ability to cultivate this method of thinking. I think it must tie into the psychology of someone who knows that they are a “wannabe”. Somehow it intertwines that persons self esteem to the success of the RED company and it’s products which would explain the rabid tenor of reduser.net. The amazing amount of traffic to their website is a testament to REDs true genius.


Meryem Ersoz wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:16 AM PST:

You appear to be belittling Jim out for being a serious hobbyist, just because he has the money to capitalize his business for as long as he wants. Or until he sells 50,000 Epic camera systems and 100,000 Scarlets, whichever comes first.

And yet you announced on reduser that you’re husband “has you covered” with lenses. How fortunate for you that you have a SUGAR DADDY who will subsidize your professionalism, wouldn’t you say?

Unfortunately, I don’t think that you will be able to see the hypocrisy of not paying your own way, on one hand, with labeling Jim a serious hobbyist, with the other.

There is nothing wrong with being a serious hobbyist, by the way. Serious hobbyists move these industries along and there are plenty of them out there rocking their RED ONEs and helping to drive the RED vision forward. It is only the pejorative sense in which you are using the term to debase Jim’s mission to improve this industry that is so insulting.

You should be on your knees thanking him for lighting a fire under Canon’s butt and pushing the trickleware envelope. Same goes for Sony.

Does RED deliver great cameras that make superb images RIGHT NOW? Yes, they do. I own two of them, paid for by my own labor. I love what these cameras can do, but make no mistake about it: what really matters to me is that RED has undermined that business model. This serves EVERYBODY, not just the current owners of these cameras, but also those who decide not to buy a Scarlet because it is too late, too expensive, etc.

I wish Canon would give me a full credit for my pair of XH A1 cameras towards a 1DSMarkV – Epic, Shmepic – that will be the day that Jim’s work is truly done, mission accomplished. The day that all camera companies put their best efforts on the table, the first time.

What a different imaging world that would be.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:24 AM PST:

I’m happy with RED One… yesterday I got over 16k for being a RED owner. Not just that alone… but I get to be at the head of the line. Let me see Canon do that. Also in the meantime I keep getting these wonderful upgrades to my RED one which adds so many new features. its like getting a new camera every month. Yes I will admit I’m a RED fanboy… who the heck wouldn’t be?


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:28 AM PST:

Wait I was wrong with that calculation… yesterday I got over 23.5K for being a RED one owner. Full trade in value of the RED One and over 6k worth of accessories. I love Jim’s hobby… its such great hobby to pursue. Yes I’m a rEd fanboy… with such treats… why wouldn’t I be? I’m getting paid to be a RED camera shooter.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:38 AM PST:

That is one of the most disgusting forum threads I’ve ever had the displeasure to read. And, believe me, I’ve been part of a lot of “drama” in my long net history.

I think the key to all this is the post by Andrae Palmer where he refers to you being in a “lower level money people category.” This elitist attitude is typical of not only Red users but of the company as a whole. They hyped Scarlet as being a “game changer” for DV Rebels and the prosumer market. Now that companies like Canon have beaten them to the punch, Red’s market strategy has clearly changed. They’ve found their “niche” and are sticking to it. That niche is certainly not affordable products.

Given the fact that their products seem to be in a perpetual beta state, it’s probably for the better anyway. The people who can afford Red products are willing to put up with these annoyances since the high price affords them the opportunity to belittle those using “lesser” equipment.

There is no “rebel persona” with Red. It is Ivy League elitism at it’s finest. I’m surprised they haven’t started offering a free sweater with each purchase.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:40 AM PST:

Heck I would buy one of the free sweaters.


Kenneth Fisher wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 9:54 AM PST:

They keep saying on the Red Forum that it is independent of Red. This is a blatant lie. Jim Jannard publicly sets policy there and tells forum members in his posts how the forum will work. He sets the policy and rules. Most recently I read him stating that people will be “dealt with a sharp axe” for bashing other cameras(Paraphrased from memory). Interestingly, I have seen him do exactly that which he criticizes.

Jannard has made comments in his posts that make it clear that he is in control again and again. Why do they bother to maintain the fiction that he does not? Perhaps to maintain the idea that they are so democratic? This is disassociation of the forum from Red is pretend, nothing else.

So Eugenia, you were banned by Red, not by some independent entity. And the guy who banned you, “Ace” rationalized it by you speaking your mind here then showing up to defend yourself. Did he ban any of the people calling you names? No. Does he ban the people on that forum who constantly bash other camera companies and owners? No.

I count myself among the people who were excited about Scarlet – and have the money to buy it at the advertised price that was put out there to keep us salivating – or the “real price” when it shows up. But I am certainly getting tired of Red’s behavior, I am tired of the communities Mac-Fanboy style zealotry, and I am pretty sure the right camera at the right price is coming from Canon in the next year.

The reason that Mr. Jannard has been making these “incremental announcements”, which is very similar to making incremental upgrades, is to prevent the hopeful from running out and buying a Canon 7D. If he had not made the Scarlet announcement, pretty much all the people waiting on it would have purchased 7Ds or 5Ds etc. by now.

When Red is purchased the way Adobe purchased Macromedia, Mr. Jannard will have realized another large fortune. But will the Red Fanboys will become Canon fanboys?

Kenneth Fisher


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:00 AM PST:

RED is a private company but Heck if RED gets purchased… I’ll just become an Angenieux fanboy. You lower level money people are getting upset when a price has not even been released yet… how silly can that be. LOL. You lot are such an envious treacherous group of depraved people.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:24 AM PST:

There you go with that “you lower level money people” thing again.

Andrae, how would you feel if I referred to you as “you people?”


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:27 AM PST:

I would think you are talking about a sophisticated, elite, tech savvy… RED camera user.


Polpope wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:29 AM PST:

Ok, Andrea is an idiot. That doesn’t mean Eugenia makes any sense.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:31 AM PST:

Yes I agree with you… Andreas is an idiot and also Eugenia doesn’t make any sense.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:31 AM PST:

True. I am very unsophisticated. LOL

Long live the new flesh!


Dominique wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:45 AM PST:

Eugenia,

I thought those attacking you would be worthy opponents but some are just downright pathetic to the point of being misogynistic.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:47 AM PST:

Andrae Palmer, you don’t get to name-call people here. Do it one more time, and this time, it’s you who will get banned, not me. At least you get a warning.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:48 AM PST:

Eugenia,

What happened to freedom of speech?


Polpope wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:49 AM PST:

I have called names as well.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:49 AM PST:

Freedom of speech does not give you the right to name-call people. Freedom of speech lets you discuss your opinions, and you are very welcome to do that. Also, I gave you a warning, I didn’t outright ban you (as it happened in my case).


Polpope wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:52 AM PST:

Eugenia, the centered role doesn’t fit you at all. Remember I read your rants at prolost and how people there had to put you in your place.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:55 AM PST:

Polpope, I have strong opinions, that’s for sure. But if it fits me or not, it’s up to me to decide. As for Prolost, I don’t always agree with him, and I voice that disagreement — when occurs.

What IS up to you, is to simply not read my rants and thoughts, if you dislike them as much as you show.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 10:59 AM PST:

Last time I checked, this was Eugenia’s blog. She should be allowed to say whatever she wants here. She didn’t post her thoughts on the Red forum until someone else there posted a link and attacked her. Where was freedom of speech then? You peopleâ„¢ didn’t seem to care about her freedom of speech on the Red forum so why would you expect her to give you any here?


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:00 AM PST:

Eugenia,

I have strong opinions too… very strong opinions. Would it be OK for me to call you an hobbyist? i do like suing the “LLMP”… its no different than the government saying some people are lower class. Can I use LLMP?


Polpope wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:01 AM PST:

You don’t have strong opinions, you have strongly wrong, weakly thought opinions.

To call Jim Jannard, a person who had already built a small empire building glasses, an amateur just because he’s passionate only shows prejudice and malice.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:05 AM PST:

I did not call him an “amateur”. Read the first update at the bottom of the article. If you can’t understand what actually I am saying there, then there’s no hope to understand my point.

>Would it be OK for me to call you an hobbyist?

Yes, please. I am a hobbyist.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:06 AM PST:

BTW I’m not a misogynist… I’m more like classist elitist. I love women…. o’ yeah baby… yes I do.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:06 AM PST:

Why are Red users so tender? Eugenia was criticizing Red’s business practices. I don’t see Jim Jannard responding so what are you peopleâ„¢ so offended about?


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:07 AM PST:

>LLMP

I don’t know what that stands for. Remember, I am not a native english person. So certain words, either I don’t know, or I have a different understanding for (e.g. for the word “hobby”).


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:08 AM PST:

LLMP stands for Lower Level Money People. Would it be OK for me to categorize some of your readers as that?


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:10 AM PST:

I don’t know if it this is meant to be derogatory on purpose. If it is, then no. But if it’s not, and you are simply trying to make a point, then I am sure that some people are poorer than others, and that would be just a fact of life.


Andrae Palmer wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:12 AM PST:

Well darn to be honest I was using it in a derogatory form. Hmmm… I’ll have to come up with something a little more subtler now.


xiaNaix wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:12 AM PST:

Andrae, would it be okay for me to call you George Jefferson? If so, feel free to call me a LLMP.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on October 31st, 2009 at 11:16 AM PST:

Ok, this discussion has gone to the floor now. No one is saying anything productive anymore. It’s all just cheap shots against each other.

Since RedUser has closed that thread, I will close the comments here too. Thank you everyone for having participated. I believe all sides have been heard.

If you feel that you haven’t been heard, feel free to email me.


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