FUD and ignorance

The Linux world is shaken today by reports that Novell is forking OOo and adds MS’ new XML office file format to it. The FUD and ignorance comes from the part where that’s not a fork, but merely a plugin/addon. In fact, back in the day when Ximian (now bought by Novell) had created a Gnome-look for OOo, that required more code changes on OOo’s main codebase than this XML addon requires. In other words, that Gnome look for OOo (that only years later became part of the main OOo codeline) was technically more of a fork than this XML addon today is. But hey, everyone likes to troll about this or that. Linux guys found a new enemy to do just that: Novell.

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Dan Brokeau wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 2:27 AM PST:

I think that Theo de Raadt (OpenBSD) said it well:

“Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We (OpenBSD) do what we do because we love Unix.”


Moulinneuf wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 4:27 AM PST:

“The Linux world is shaken today”

Really ? I am under the impression that its a news that report on Novell incomming version of OpenOffice and one of its plugins. Its not attached to the kernel either …

” The FUD and ignorance comes from the part where that’s not a fork”

Its not in the main OpenOffice project , so its a fork from the main version , is it not ? The interesting question ( for me ) is why is the main project refusing to include it , probably as to do with no way to review what’s inside the code and under a proprietary closed source license , just guessing here.

“Linux guys found a new enemy to do just that: Novell.”

Enemy is someone who can oppose you and who is of the same strenght , Microsoft is not an enemy , its a nuisance , so I doubt that a smaller less fortunate and less prevalent company that use and contribute to GNU/Linux and the linux kernel is any enemy to itself.

“We (OpenBSD) do what we do because we love Unix.”

Why arent you working on Unix then ?


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Eugenia wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 4:37 AM PST:

>Its not attached to the kernel either …

Haha, when the Linux users run out of arguments, they always –but ALWAYS– they come and tell you that Linux is just the kernel. Guess what: we know and we don’t care about your definition! Unless we say “linux kernel” in particular, we mean the Linux universe.

>so its a fork from the main version , is it not ?

NO, it is NOT. It is the exact same version as OOo shells out, plus an additional piece of code. This is like saying that if Fedora ships with a Firefox that has a third party extension in it, it’s a Firefox fork. No, this does not constitute as a fork. As long as you don’t change a lot of code in the main codeline of a project in order to achieve different functionality and you don’t setup a different server to keep the new code integrated to the old one, then it’s not a fork.

>so I doubt […] GNU/Linux and the linux kernel is any enemy to itself.

I didn’t say an enemy to the Linux kernel and desktop. I said an enemy of the Linux USERS.

Look. Communities usually create their own enemies, because they need them. That’s how they get BONDED together. In some sense, turning Novell into a big bad wolf, it makes the Linux users feel better about themselves. For some reason, Linux want to hate MS and everyone who works with them.

Personally, I have no problem with MS, and when I look at Novell, I don’t see a big bad wolf either. Groklaw should be apologizing for their stupid article today saying that Novell forked OOo. It’s laughable.


Moulinneuf wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 6:44 AM PST:

“when the Linux users run out of arguments”

Linux users is a pretty vague and large term that include a lot of people ( even yourself , since you used GNU/Linux in the past ). GNU/Linux appologist is the term your looking for.

“They come and tell you that Linux is just the kernel”

No , thats the Free Software advocate who promote the usage of GNU/Linux , its a subset of the Linux users ;-)

“Guess what: we know”

You claim to understand , its not exactlky the same thing.

“we don’t care about your definition! ”

We do ;-)

“Unless we say “linux kernel” in particular, we mean the Linux universe.”

Thats why your getting corrected by those , who like me care.

“NO, it is NOT. It is the exact same version as OOo shells out, plus an additional piece of code.”

I think there is more code to there version then simply Novell branding and a new plugins. Thats where our difference seem to be , really.

“This is like saying that if Fedora ships with a Firefox that has a third party extension in it, it’s a Firefox fork.”

Yes , because the code is not included in the main projects.

“No, this does not constitute as a fork”

For me , a fork is a software code that is modified and maintained outside of the project tree. Branding does not mean fork , but different code and different maintenance tree that dont make sure its 100% compatible and maintained the same , is a fork , for me.

“As long as you don’t … it’s not a fork.”

We seem to have the same similar definition , but not the same observation about Novell work.

“Linux guys found a new enemy to do just that: Novell.”

Is what you originally said , I simply stated that Novell is not an enemy of GNU/Linux or Linux , Microsoft is not even an enemy of GNU/Linux or Linux and they are bigger more fortunate and more ressourcefull then Novell is , GNU/Linux and the Linux kernel only have themself as real ennemy was my point.

GNU/Linux is a parasite on others OS computers , I realised that about 8 years ago and its still as true today as it was then. The Software improved , the Hardware support improved. Even integration is imporving.

The hardware made for GNU/Linux is still almost non existant outside of servers. There is no prototype of Desktop system that as GNU/Linux in mind on the drawing boards.

“Look. Communities usually create their own enemies”

I tought communities where people who agreed togher on the same point who join there effort to achieve the same goals.

“That’s how they get BONDED together. ”

I tought it was true hard daily working togheter almost everydays.

“In some sense, turning Novell into a big bad wolf, it makes the Linux users feel better about themselves.”

I strongly disagree , For me and most of the GNU/Linux users I know ( cant speak for them all ) , getting more hardware , mors software by releasing new distributions that work better then the last , more driver and buying proprietary software and making them GPL and Free Software is what make us feel better about ourself and is what define us from the rest of the software industry.

“For some reason, Linux want to hate MS and everyone who works with them.”

Thats , how you choose to define and describe and simplify Linux and GNU/Linux for yourself. But the reality is all software that are Free Software are cross platform , open source and free software , AKA they wok on Mac OS X and Windows and BSD and Solaris and etc …

“Personally, I have no problem with MS”

Me neither , its MS who as a problem with GNU/Linux and its users.

“and when I look at Novell, I don’t see a big bad wolf either”

Me neither , but that dont means I am going to applaud and not disagree with some of there current past actions.

“Groklaw should be apologizing for their stupid article today saying that Novell forked OOo.”

Groklaw reported facts as they see them.

“It’s laughable.”

From my point of view there will be a lot of discussion about acquiring that plug-ins for other distribution who dont have it. Its going to be mentionned as an advatage of Novell in there futur discussion about there veriosn of OOo.

I would have prefered they acquired it for everyone and released it for everyone.

Unix …
Dos …
Amiga …
BEOS …
OS/2 …
BSD …
Solaris …

Now its GNU/Linux


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 6:57 AM PST:

You are writing too much, I won’t reply sentence by sentence like you did. I will only re-iterrate that you are simply overreacting and that you are being too defensive given the kind of the reply you wrote.


This is the admin speaking...
Eugenia wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 7:39 AM PST:

The XML addon does not have any patent related problems either. Not more than the already DOC support on OOo.


Luis wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 7:52 AM PST:

That Groklaw article is ridiculous. OpenOffice.org has supported Microsoft Office’s closed format for years now. And now that Novell wrote this filter to support Open XML they want to call it PatentOffice.org???

Unless I’m mistaken Open XML is an open standard that can be implemented by anyone. I applaud Microsoft for this (though I’d prefer that they had joined the OpenDocument format and improve it if they think it’s not a good enough standard), and I applaud Novell for creating this filter that will soon go into the standard OpenOffice. This makes Open Office superior to Microsft Office 2007 in terms of interoperability and unless MS decides to support ODF it might lose a lot of market share in the next few years.

By the way, I didn’t like at all Novell’s patent agreement with Microsoft, but this has nothing to do with it.


Ricardo Ramalho wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 9:16 AM PST:

This shit is like when people started putting Mono stuff on Gnome. It’s something from Redmond! Oh my God! It’s the evil empire! We mustn’t use things from them (even if they’re better than anything we have)!

Having ways to interoperate with the other side of the pond easily is good! It’s not bad, it’s not ugly, it’s not something that goes against Freedom. Actually, it gives me… Freedom! Wierd isn’t it? ;)

Not accepting a patch to use those formats is simply stupid, but maybe i’m being too much of rational guy here…

I 100% agree with you on this one, Eugenia! :)


l3v1 wrote on December 5th, 2006 at 10:01 AM PST:

I don’t think adding a GTK frontend to OOo introduced anything into OOo that would’ve or could’ve raised any patent-related issues and/or questions whatsoever, do you ? Just make the plugin, make it available, state clearly the license issues involved, and there would be nothing to talk about really, besides somebody being helpful.


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